Ep. 118 | From Plant to Profit: Navigating Cannabis and Taxes

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Hey, everyone, and welcome back to the Teaching Tax Flow podcast episode 118 today. We’re gonna look at cannabis and taxes, what it means for the industry, hopefully take some of the confusion or interest that you have and make some sense of it here with a great guest we have coming up. But before we do that, let’s take a brief moment and thank our episode sponsor.

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This podcast is sponsored by Reps Tracker. Are you a real estate investor who is bogged down with the huge tax burden? Real estate investing can open the door to powerful tax benefits. Rep’s Tracker can streamline the process of accelerating these opportunities. To take advantage of a special TTF community discount, go to teaching tax flow.com backslash reps, r e p s, and use the code I f g. Better

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Alright, everybody. Welcome back to the Teaching Tax Flow podcast. As you heard in the intro or read in the show description, today, we’re gonna talk about something pretty unique that you may not have expected from us. So, obviously, we’re gonna dive into the world of cannabis. Not the details of the industry specifically, but how it relates to taxes.

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So if it’s something that you haven’t thought thought about, whether you’re in the industry, thinking about going into the industry, you’re thinking about investing in the industry, you’re a user, you’re not a user, etcetera. Just even based off any interests, this is a good one to listen to because you might start to connect some dots, if we will, just how some specific industries do pose some challenges and opportunities when it comes to taxes. So as always, we brought not only this guy that if you’re watching, you can see, but we brought on a great guest, which I’ll let introduce here shortly. But, Chris, you know, as I always say, welcome back to your own show, sir. How’s it going?

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Thanks, John. Oh, jeez. It’s so great to see you again, John.

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Oh, I know. Look at that.

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There was

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I am unblushing again. Here I am unblushing.

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I know. I know. No. It’s great to be be back. I’m excited about this topic.

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This is a topic you might think to yourself, well, cannabis industry, that’s not a well, this is yeah. How many people does that affect? Ultimately, it affects anyone that operates or works in that industry. So we’re gonna talk about owners of some of businesses in that industry. We’re gonna talk about employees of of in that industry.

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We’re also gonna talk about vendors. So, you know, what happens if you own a piece of property and you rent it out to someone in the cannabis industry? Does that is there a play role? And then and then, talk through this on a federal level. We know that each each state’s a little bit different, but we could touch on that.

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We have an amazing guest, so I’m gonna be quiet. Bringing in Karina Miller, a CPA based out of Michigan, and we’ve met many years ago with through the Michigan Association of CPAs. She, in my opinion, is the authority on cannabis industry tax and actually accounting, attestation, which we’ll touch on a little bit. Karina, welcome to the Teaching Tax Flow podcast.

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Thank you, Chris. I’m excited to be here.

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Can you tell us about yourself and and what how you know, what led you to become a a CPA and then ultimately niche into this industry?

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Sure. So I I started in the cannabis industry in in late 2016, so it’s it’s been a little while now. I got my CPA license, 2011, so 5 years earlier. I went it was a college. I had a professor who, you know, it was, between finance and accounting, and, you know, the their encouragement was to go into the accounting field.

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So that’s what I did, and then, got my start with a a regional firm here. You know, was there for, enough time to get my CPA and to, you know, to see to see how things worked, and then I I ended up going into private industry, and then into cannabis after that.

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Awesome. And and tell us about kind of the the type of clients you typically work with, both on a maybe a tax compliance side, but also a little bit about, you know, accounting, attestation. I know I’m using the term attestation. Many of you don’t you’re kinda looking your at your phone or your computer or whatever right now saying, why is this got what is attestation? But we’re gonna create a break that down in a little simpler terms.

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Sure. Sure. So, two sides to it. So there’s, I have my my core client group who I I like to call them managed advisory services. It’s it’s overseeing their accounting, their tax advisory, their tax preparation, kind of everything that they need.

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I work with small businesses, mostly based in Michigan, primarily growers and processors, and then, a few retailers as well. The attestation side is different. So so attestation, the the CPA has to be independent. The way I explained that to a client is they they don’t do anything with your books. They’re not, you know, helping you with with the details of your tax planning, your advisory.

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There there’s somebody probably that you’ve never met or or know, you know, haven’t worked with, you know, somebody, completely unbiased to your business. And then they come in, you know, and and do, an attestation looking over your your records and making sure they’re compliant. So you need somebody who who isn’t overseeing those to to be able to attest to them.

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And so a lot of people and I know you’re specifically in Michigan. So let’s just talk about the Michigan rules and and each state’s different. But it’s similar if you’re listening, similar to a lot of contractors. So a lot of contractors need a CPA to come in and kinda put their their eyes on on your financial statements. And depending on the size in the contractors, view, depending on the size of the entity and that sort of things, it’ll dictate how much the CPA has to lean into the financials and how much time they’re putting into it and and testing that they are accurate.

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Can you kind of tell us on a from a 30,000 folk view in in the state of Michigan because there’s a lot of regulation in this industry. What are some of the requirements for someone in this industry?

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So Michigan, operators are required to have an attestation every 3 years, and the the state, puts a a form together with, it’s a set of agreed upon procedures. So it’s, procedures that the CPA is performing to to look at your records to make sure they’re compliant. You know, high level view, you need to make sure that you have all the receipts for your transaction. So it’s a rule to have and keep your vendor receipts. So even if it’s, you know, going out for lunch or the gas station, you know, the the role is to have your receipts.

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So even those types of transactions can be looked at.

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Awesome. And and if when should someone let’s say you’re in this industry as a as a retail person, a processor, or a grower. When should they start establishing a relationship with the CPA in in in building their team out? You know, CPA bookkeeper, I know you you have a a great suite of services that you could provide, but not all CPAs or necessarily are going to or enrolled agents for that matter, do the bookkeeping in the payroll. But when should they start looking for that that that firm or that person to help them out with it?

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I I would say at the beginning. So I I think a lot of clients defer to working with an attorney as their first professional service provider, and they’re helping them with with lease agreements, operating agreements that have tax matter sections. And a lot of times I see a client won’t engage a CPA until long after these types of agreements to to get their business started are signed, and and they don’t realize exactly what those agreements mean from a from a tax perspective. So, you know, do you, for myself, I tend to answer questions. You know, if somebody called me and said, I’m I’m looking at getting into cannabis.

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You know? Can you talk with me for a few minutes? I I usually give give some advice. You know, I I don’t, you know, I I try to help. So I would say at least try to talk with the CPA in the beginning.

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May maybe you’re not, you know, consulting with them on a formal hourly basis, but at least at least have that opinion next to to your, you know, the agreements and things that you’re looking at to get your business started.

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And no. That’s that’s a great advice, and I think it that transcends a lot of different industries. We see sometimes people probably better off looking for professional advice, early than too late. And, so if someone is coming so what are some of the unique tax rules related to the cannabis industry and in some of the recent potential developments going on, and then we’ll start talking about some of the other segments. But specifically right now for someone that is operating a cannabis based industry, what yeah.

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What are some of the unique tax rules? And and, again, is there anything coming down the pipeline potentially to change that?

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Sure. So the most unique tax rule is, you know, businesses that are are cannabis. Cannabis is a schedule 1 controlled substance at at the federal level. So they’re subject to a a tax rule called, 280 e, which disallows them from taking ordinary necessary business expenses. So if you if you think about, you know, those types of expenses, marketing, payroll, in some cases, you know, you’re limited, pretty heavily.

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Now from an operator perspective and from a a tax professional perspective, you you are allowed to take your cost of goods sold. So so to me, that’s where the the fun part kinda comes in, especially if you are a a grower or processor. You know, there’s there’s a specific inventory regulation that that lists all the all the costs, you know, that that can be included in your inventory. So just spending the time with the client early on to get their their accounting chart of accounts set up right to capture all these costs. You know, you’re going on the accrual method of accounting.

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So this isn’t cash based for for these operators unless they make a change of accounting method election. So so you have some complexities there to, you know, make sure you’re capturing those costs and then make sure you’re you’re writing them off properly as your inventory product is sold. Operators, you know, I I would say, you know, especially if you’re a grower or processor, make make sure your CPA understands those inventory regulations because there’s there’s a lot of opportunity for capturing costs. And if the CPA isn’t familiar with that, they’re they’re likely to miss things, you know, for you.

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No. Absolutely. So for for most taxpayers, the cost of goods sold is for a lot of people with inventory, that’s one of their largest deductions, maybe their largest deduction. And then, however, they’re they’re able to deduct all other ordinary necessary business expenses. For someone in this industry right now, they can only deduct the cost of goods sold.

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But like Karina said, you’ve we’re working with the right CPA firm, right tax professional that really understands the rules. They’re gonna be able to potentially capture other deductions that could be considered cost of goods sold, and offset your taxable income. Because when you’re paying tax on your your income minus cost to get sold and not your other expenses, it gets really, really expensive. So, and and that is based on the, the Department of Justice, how they classify cannabis at this point, I believe. But there is a potential of reclassification.

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I know we’re at at the time of this recording, that those proceedings were kicked down the road a little bit. But if if if it’s a is it a schedule 1 and they’re thinking about moving it to a schedule 3, or am I, trusting my memory too much?

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That’s correct. The the department of, human health services recommended, moving cannabis to schedule 3. Now then this was back, springtime of last year. So the, they they went through a comment period session over this. They had a hearing, on December 2nd, so so little over a month ago at the time of this recording.

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But they didn’t have expert witness testimony there, so they couldn’t complete the hearing procedures and then pushed it off. So so there is potential, you know, if it was rescheduled to schedule 3, you know, you have the where 280 e only applies to schedule 1 and schedule 2. But then you get into, you you know, schedule 3. And and if my memory is serving me right, that’s the same schedule as, you know, codeine and and other types of pharmaceuticals like that. And there there’s no adult use, recreational use for for pharmaceutical.

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Right.

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You know? So so there there’s still some regulatory, you know, issues they’re gonna have to work out if if they do, push it to schedule 3.

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Well, Karina, they they should have gotten your number for expert testimony. So shame on them for not using the resources teaching tax law has. That’s what I have to say. Right.

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So, Karina, a couple of questions for you too. So, you know, I’m I’m gonna make the assumption that majority of our audience that’s listening to this probably isn’t in the industry. Again, depending on their geographic location, they’re probably surrounded by the industry one way, shape, or form. And then, you know, obviously, there’s a lot of interest that goes around this. So I don’t know the best way to really ask as far as for how do we make a comparison to say, say somebody wanted to open a business, and I’ll I’ll kinda let you decide whether it’s a a a grower or a provisioning center or retail versus, you know, the the similar process that you wanted to start a, landscaping company or something?

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Just so we could really lay it out for our audience where some of those kind of paths veer in different directions, if that’s okay.

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Sure. So so to operate a cannabis business, in any state, the the state itself will have its own regulations. So you have to have a license through the state. Getting that license, your your facility has to be compliant. So there’s rules, you know, for for building out your facility, whether you’re a a grower or a retailer.

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There’s municipal regulations. So here in Michigan, for example, we have municipalities who opt in or opt out, and then they have their own set of rules. So you have to be familiar with the state and with the local rules of of where you’re operating. You know, it’s not it’s not something you can just say I’m gonna start one day. It it does require, you know, pretty intensive capital in most cases to get started, especially on the grow and the processing side.

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You you know, they have a lot of equipment and in, build outs. You know, a lot a lot of what I’ve seen is, you know, where the municipalities regulate these businesses, they’re they’re often in industrial areas. So if if you’ve got a building that is an old industrial facility, there there’s usually substantial improvements that need to be made to that building just to get it up to to compliance specifications. You know, you have to be careful for, contaminants, you know, molds, pests, you know, all all these things that you you don’t really think about as much or or even have to think about for a traditional business that that you do have to take into consideration for cannabis.

00:16:08.415 –> 00:16:26.720
And you mentioned so let let’s let’s pivot now because you did mention facility, which is a great segue to this. Although I do have one question, so I’m not pivoting yet, I guess. Interesting. Now when you you mentioned accrual based, does that the inventory has to be accrual based, or does the entire entity be have to be taxed as accrual based?

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Off inventory has to be accrual based. See, it is So I thought capitalizing costs.

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Yes. Yep. Yeah. And are the so are are any of anyone in the cannabis industry eligible for I know they can’t get a lot of deductions. Are any of them eligible for any tax credits, or would probably not That I’m missing

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Well, that that’s actually a great question. I I know a number of, cannabis companies who did receive the employee retention credit, because that was based off of of payroll taxes.

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Right.

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Now, you know, you had different opinions. Could that have been disallowed? Could could that have be one of these that the IRS is scrutinizing hard? So you really have to weigh the you know, what the risks are in in that. But, otherwise, if it’s income tax related, no.

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They’re not allowed credits or or deductions because of 280 e.

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I was thinking about, like, research and development credit. That’s the only that’s the only one I was thinking of. But, you know, so hopefully hopefully for those taxpayers and for their sake that this it can get rescheduled to get in we’ll see what happens. And so segueing into let’s say somebody has a has a owns a owns a warehouse. Right?

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And and they get approached by someone in the cannabis industry, and they say, hey. I’d like to rent this warehouse out. Obviously, we know with the cannabis industry, there are some challenges with payment processing, with banking. I think we’ve come a long way with some credit unions and some outfits being able to being open to doing business. But for someone that’s doing business with someone in the cannabis industry, like a landlord or or maybe a, I mean, a waste management company.

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Right? Or some some just a normal normal vendors that we all use operating in office. Are there any considerations that those people might might have they could think of? Or

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There there is. You know, the the banks want to know that what they they tend to call you a tier 2 or tier 3. So tier 1 is a cannabis operator directly. Tier 2, would be somebody like me who’s getting payments. Tier 3 is who I’m paying.

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And that depends on the bank and their their risk structure. There at least in Michigan and I and I know other states that there are a number of banks and and credit unions, especially, who are open to working with the industry. You know, the the cost is more. So an operator, you know, I I’ve seen fees range, you know, close to $3,000 just to to go through the application process to open an account. And then they’re charged, you know, 250 to to a $1,000 per month.

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As a tier 2, when I first got in here, my charge was $50 per month. I I was able to find a bank that that didn’t charge for for tier 2 other than just their normal fees. So you do have to do your research and, you know, find the right banking partner.

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Right. So if you’re someone that’s that is a vendor, a common vendor of a a cannabis industry, that that’s something that you need to consider as well. So, that’s a great, really

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good question. I’ve never thought about that. Even like it’s, yeah. So, yeah, would would make sense, and I guess you have to disclose that. Right?

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And then, Karina, have you ever seen it where I mean, I I don’t know if this really would’ve trickled to you or not. You know, I’m sure. But I’m also sure, like, your relationship with your clients. Right? You’re a you’re a a very, very, very trusted asset to their success.

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Right? Like, I’m sure you walk into some of their facilities and they got, you know, cookies and charcuterie board spreads for you, keeping you happy, with some warm fuzzy slippers and a blanket. But have you ever seen it where, say your client is a tier 1, and then all of a sudden, a lot of tier 2 issues pop up where I don’t know if, you know, are are are those tier I love that they’re tier ones and tier twos. It reminds me of automotive a little bit, but, like, what what happens at that point? I mean, do you is there an audit process that sometimes takes place, and, you know, how does that look?

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Are the outcomes usually never in the favor of the businesses tier 1 or 2? And the reason why I asked that is sometimes, I’m sure if it goes down all the way to tier 3, some of these vendors might not even know that they’re directly working in the industry. They might just look at it as you know, because there’s so many names, right, for companies now. You might not know what industry they are. Like, Chris, you mentioned if you’re picking up, you know, trash like waste management, do you really know what industry it is?

00:20:59.010 –> 00:21:02.550
Maybe not. Right? Like like, what has been your experience with that?

00:21:02.930 –> 00:21:39.630
I and I will I will clarify the tier 3. I I think it it does depend on how much of your mix is from the industry, how much of your business. Tier 3 in my mind too is also so if you have, let’s say, an investment company at the top and then you’ve got, the real estate company and the, equipment rental company, and then those the real estate and the equipment company are renting to the cannabis operator. So money tier 1, cannabis operator up to the rental company, which is tier 2, and then tier 3 up to the investor company. That that Gotcha.

00:21:39.850 –> 00:22:10.580
I was thinking that too. So that that’s that’s common, you know, where you have an investor holding company that is they’re there because they’re there to fund the business and, you know, it’s ancillary operations. Yeah. As far as what happens, you know, if if the bank isn’t aware, you know, year years ago when I first got into this, I I worked with my normal bank and didn’t think anything of it. And they found out I was receiving payments from cannabis companies and they closed my accounts.

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So you you do wanna make sure the bank is aware of what you’re doing and and has that structure.

00:22:16.125 –> 00:22:45.585
Well, that’s a great example. I mean, it’s not like you’re trying to be malicious or anything. You just we, you know, we we don’t we ran into that with, we used to have a niche in helping foreign nationals or non US residents with, with tax tax compliance, and we had a bank not not like that. Not on it because, you know, we were wiring, getting receiving payments from certain countries that they didn’t like, you know, and and that that can happen. So no.

00:22:45.585 –> 00:23:08.280
So I wanna wrap up. I was just thinking about because it’s the bigger scope of this. Like, think about, like, payroll for instance. Do most of the cannabis industry companies are they are they, able now to do some type of electric pay payroll processing? Because I think about all and all the people that even work in a cannabis industry, do do they get a normal w two and can in in their tax reporting and that sort of stuff.

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So

00:23:09.025 –> 00:23:19.185
Yep. They they do. There there are a number of payroll companies that support the industry now. Gusto, Gusto, however you say that. They’re active in the industry.

00:23:19.185 –> 00:23:39.685
That’s a pretty common one that’s out there. You know, there’s there’s several who who provide, what they do though is they’ll they’ll put you on the highest tier because of their compliance costs. So so there is more cost to it. Where an issue is is like 401 k plans for your employees. I I don’t see any of those.

00:23:39.685 –> 00:23:55.090
I mean, that that’s kind of a a different a different animal. Health care, they are able to get health care and and benefits like that, but it’s it’s more the investment side that is not friendly to the industry at all.

00:23:55.550 –> 00:24:10.158
Wow. Yeah. I mean, I think I I can see that and, I know, what’s, you know but think about where it’s come. I mean, when and you said you how far it’s come in the last 5 years, right, as far as the challenges you had 5 years ago? Sure.

00:24:10.158 –> 00:24:18.550
There are challenges now, but, hopefully, they’re they’re different challenges. They’re a little easier to jump those hurdles and and become more main stream. So, anything fine

00:24:18.550 –> 00:24:23.290
with your from bags of bills in back alleys. Yep. Right?

00:24:24.550 –> 00:24:43.075
So I know we talked a little bit about Michigan, but any you know, what’s your best advice for someone that doesn’t live in Michigan? They’re listening in another state. Yeah. How could they find someone, to help them out on the tax side of things and and or just learn about the rules specifically for that for that state?

00:24:43.615 –> 00:25:05.445
Sure. So I would first start with researching the state’s website or or, you know, they they should have a page with information. Michigan, there’s a wealth of information out there. The they do educational sessions, on a regular basis. So so webinars where they’re teaching about different topics related to licensing.

00:25:05.985 –> 00:25:38.925
So so that’s that’s the first place to start is with the state’s website. Second place, you know, I would see if if your your state CPA association has has any resources. So, like, here in in Michigan, we have a cannabis resource group. We have a a site with some basic information about understanding the tax rules, you know, understanding some of the different nuances in the industry. And it’s it’s designed to give enough information where you you know what steps to take to research further.

00:25:40.600 –> 00:26:09.510
3rd tip, you know, if you’re brand new, look look on social media for different groups. So, you know, again, Michigan, we we have an active, cannabis professionals group with, you know, I think close to 10,000 members in it and people from other states as well. So if you can find, you know, resources like that and throw your questions out, ask for a recommendation for for a tax professional who can help, and you’re gonna get that that feedback and information back.

00:26:10.770 –> 00:26:30.025
So awesome. And and, Corina, we’ll drop your contact as well in the, in the show notes and whatnot where anybody’s listening to this too. So if anybody has direct questions, they can always reach out to you. And unless they’re so busy helping everybody out there that you’ll have to send them somewhere. But I know we met you at a at a conference, you know, Chris and myself, I believe it was last year.

00:26:30.345 –> 00:26:50.440
Well, really, it was that long ago. If we say last year, 24, but a while back. And, I mean, honestly, I I was just blown away with your your knowledge in that industry, and it seems like a lot of tax professionals just, I wouldn’t say, shy away from it, but that’s just not their comfort zone. You know? It’s a it’s a nontraditional industry.

00:26:50.440 –> 00:27:12.920
And, I mean, I appreciated the presentation that you had and just walking through it and the way that you explain things to people. Their questions, I think, somebody had in there, it’s you did a really good job. So, basically, what I’m going around the circles of saying is it’s always nice talking to you about this and hearing kinda your your take on it. And you’ve been doing it for a while too. It’s not like you just woke up last Tuesday and thought the industry would be fun.

00:27:12.920 –> 00:27:17.340
Right? It seems like it’s your your niche and passion, so we appreciate it.

00:27:17.640 –> 00:27:23.545
Yeah. I I appreciate that. I I do love to talk about it, so I am happy to answer any questions.

00:27:24.245 –> 00:27:31.830
Awesome. Awesome. Well, Chris, I don’t know if you have any other questions. If not, maybe we’ll, let Karina get back to work because I’m sure she’s slammed as well.

00:27:33.350 –> 00:27:40.550
Absolutely. No. I appreciate her time. Again, she’s an amazing resource. If you have any questions, please reach out to her if you or reach out to us.

00:27:40.550 –> 00:27:48.135
We’ll guide you in the right direction. Thank you so much. And and as always, I learn a lot of stuff, so I like that. Yeah. That’s good.

00:27:48.355 –> 00:27:51.075
And that’s saying a lot because Chris knows a lot. So it’s Oh

00:27:51.075 –> 00:27:51.815
my goodness.

00:27:52.915 –> 00:28:07.730
I’ll put about a little bit of a better stuff. But, yeah, Krita, thank you for joining us. Chris, thanks for joining your own show again as always, and we’ll see everybody back here again next week on the podcast. Different topic, somewhat different day, somewhat different time. So we’ll see everybody very soon.

00:28:08.910 –> 00:28:26.430
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00:28:27.210 –> 00:28:37.310
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